It seems like civil discourse in the modern era is a relegated to what I used to do on the playground in the first grade.
"Blue is pretty."
"Pink is pretty."
"You're a big stupid head."
"You're a bigger stupid head."
If you disagree with me you are obviously an uninformed flame-troll put here by the (insert opposition)'s lobbyists to fear monger and scare the other poor unintelligent people out there who are not as intelligent as I obviously am because I cannot possibly be wrong and if you're disagreeing with me in any small way, then your opinion cannot possibly have any merit.
Should say that I am conservative by nature. Don't like the government telling me what to do. Think people should take personal responsibility for their own situation.
That being said, both sides do this. Of course Rush Limbaugh and Bill O'Reilly do. So does Keith Olbermann and Rachel Maddow. So does the President and every member of Congress. Obama and most other Democrats have said that they believe that if people just had all of the facts they would fall in line. Republicans say if you knew all the information you would run screaming for the hills. It's just an extension of the same I'm right and you're stupid argument you had in grade school. The difference now is that instead of a stupid head, you are "uninformed" or "un-American." We're all Americans. We all have the right to disagree with each other. We have the right to voice our opinions. You also have the right to ignore my opinions, but if you are an elected official, you ignore them at your political peril. I remember someone mentioning that "We need to learn to disagree without being disagreeable." Where did that go?
Compounding the problem is that nobody seems to have the ability to compromise. There is no give and take anymore. Almost everything that has been done on this legislation has been along strict party lines. Now with a Deomcratic majority, the thought is if we can't get the Republican side to vote for this package, instead of compromising we will enact a procedure that was intended to deal with the federal budget and only require a simple majority to get it through. Sad.
Sadly, politics as usual. This is why people don't want to vote.
It is with great pleasure that I can say that I have a friend that while I tend to disagree with on a significant number of issues, we can still meet up and have a good time together and not let the fact that we have differences of opinion prevent us from enjoying each others company. I hope he enjoys the spirited debates as much as I do. :P You should check out his site sometime.
http://mofyc.blogspot.com/
Pat A.
Subscribe to:
Post Comments (Atom)
Posts
This guy at MOFYC is brilliant. I can't think of one thing I disagree with him on. =)
ReplyDeleteI think what's been lost is civility and the willingness to listen to other people. Actually listen. People are more interested in being in one camp or the other than actually finding solutions to problems. They're more defined by what and who they're against, than what they're for.
ReplyDeleteI think that's been compounded by the dominance of television and talk radio of the last few decades and the demise of newspapers. The former tend to be distancing, depersonalizing media and the latter a media of proximity.
If you call in a national radio or TV show, you are "Joe from upstate New York." No one knows you from Adam.
If you write a letter to the editor, you are "Joe Smith of 4 Main St. in Tupper Lake, business owner, Little League coach and usher at the Episcopal Church."
If you call in a national broadcast show, you can say that liberals or conservatives are trying to destroy this country and steal our freedoms. If you do the same in a letter to the editor (or even a town meeting or something like that), you are insulting your neighbors, relatives and friends. It's harder to insult someone you're likely to run into at the supermarket.
That veil of anonymity emboldens people's baser instincts. When your comments risk consequences to your relationships, you are more accountable and more likely to measure your words more carefully. You're less likely to see your neighbor or doctor or whomever as A Liberal or A Conservative. More likely, you probably just see him as the guy you have a beer with after hitting the tennis ball around.
I also forgot to mention a point about independent thought. We are so influenced by consuming media we already agree, which is why we literally don't know how to listen to people who don't mostly agree with us. We don't know how because we don't expose ourselves to it. Because of that, our independent thought gets shot. We simply regurgitate what Rachel Maddow or Glenn Beck spouts because we don't let ourselves hear anything that might counter it or even offer something that's slightly different. Too much of "debate" in this country is everyone repeating the same shallow talking points like robots reading a script and too little actual interaction like real human beings.
ReplyDelete"...if you are an elected official, you ignore them at your political peril."
ReplyDeleteThis is what my old Con Law professor used to call the "ballot box" remedy. Americans don't like what our elected officials are doing...don't elect them. From a systemic and ideal standpoint, it is brilliant. The Founding Father's were well-read and inspired to implement such a system.
Unfortunately, I don't think it is working. I don't think anyone gives a shit. That's part of the problem with our government and American society in general, in my opinion. I don't think people give a shit. If you read my twitter everyday, there are two running themes...stripper drama and politics. Leaving off the former, the latter is made up of posts from Meghan McCain and Brian and my mom and Stew and you, pat...in that climate, one could become convinced that it is a political world. But, unfortunately, I don't think it is. I think most Americans don't pay attention and don't care. I think apathy rules.
And I think the subconscious motivation of all those people yelling and screaming and foaming at the mouth is not to strengthen their points so much as to try and get someone to pay attention...
Well said, Patrick! Go figure, I just this minute made more or less the same comment on your Facebook post. Except that I rather think you made it better. Thanks!
ReplyDeleteI would like to thank you all for your input.
ReplyDeleteI think I have to sadly agree with GenWar that the "Ballot Box" isn't working quite the way that the founding fathers intended. I think that the fundamental problem is that the politicians have gotten MUCH better at telling people what they want to hear. This combined with the Bri's point about only following sources that spout what you already believe and lack of personal accountability are all fundamental problems that we as Americans need to learn how to deal with. I tihnk that people in general in America pretty much feel hopeless that the people that they elect have any concern for their constituent's needs in the face of the promise of kickbacks and fundraisers sopnsored by wealth. This is a bad scene. People are starting to lose faith in the system and the last time that happened there was bloodshed. There always has been. People would rightly argue that this should be fixed by the "Ballot Box", but it takes too long and by the time you get in a couple of good eggs, they have at least two years to get indoctrinated and eventually turned into the very thing they were sent there to replace. It's disappointing to say the least.
I wish we could get people of good moral fiber, and by moral fiber I don't mean sunshine and rainbows, but people who say what they mean and DO what they say. I would rather have the devil in charge telling me the truth than an angel in charge lying to me. At least then I would respect them.
Part of the problem with the Ballot Box remedy is structural. Our (too often sainted) Founding Fathers envisioned a political system without political parties. Obviously, that's no longer the case.
ReplyDeleteI'll say this until I'm blue in the face: we need real multipartyism in this country and we need to eradicate corporate control of government and the political system. These problems are Siamese twins, unable to be separated.
The corporate control part should be obvious. Ever since campaign bribes were incomprehensibly and against all common sense and precedent classified by the courts as "free speech," corporate America's suffocating influence is obvious. They make sure only candidates who do their bidding ever have a realistic chance of winning. Republicans used to be the party of big business, but now Democrats are under the control almost as much. They've hedged their bets by buying politicians in both parties so it doesn't matter to them which party wins... and thus it doesn't matter to the citizenry either. It's now government of the corporations, by the corporations and for the corporations.
Real multipartyism can only be achieved with electoral reform. In many states, esp. New York, smaller party and independent candidates face massive hurdles, including frivolous lawsuits, just getting on the ballot. If they manage to get on the ballot, they are ignored by the corporate media so no one knows what their views are. They usually have no money, because corporate interests won't waste their money bribing someone they feel has no chance of winning and even if they did, many of these candidates run precisely because they want a counterweight against corporate governance. Because they have no money, they can't buy ads to replace the non-existent "objective" coverage.
Further, most districts are gerrymandered to give either Republicans or Democrats a huge enrollment advantage. So many races see a major party candidate running unopposed or only against the money-free, media-ignored smaller party or independent candidate.
I followed closely the recent campaign of a Libertarian Congressional candidate, who I met, interviewed, heard speak and came to support and advocate for. He received more than twice as many petition signatures 'needed' to get on the ballot, over 7000. By contrast, the Dem and GOP candidates were anointed solely by the party bosses without even a primary or petitioning.
So many of the Libertarian's signatures were disqualified for bogus reasons that he was knocked off the ballot. Reasons like people putting their mailing, instead of physical, address. Or putting 'Saratoga' as their municipality of residence rather than 'Saratoga Springs.' Garbage like that. Just go to my blog and search for 'Sundwall' for more on this.
So given all this, lots of citizens feel the game is rigged in advance so why bother voting.
The problem is that fixing it is a catch-22. You can't eliminate corporate control with real multipartyism. The current legislators are bought and paid for by corporations. They are the foxes guarding the henhouse. But corporations won't let real multipartyism happen because having only two parties to bribe is a lot cheaper and less risky. Adding more parties to the mix might throw in a few independent minds, and we wouldn't want that.
At the end of the day, politicians don't tell the truth because people deep down don't want to hear it. Jimmy Carter told Americans that we need to sacrifice and act more sensibly. Ronald Reagan told Americans that asking Americans to become better was a slap in the face and that we were fine just the way we were. Carter said we need to be more humble. Reagan said we needed to be more arrogant. We all know who won comfortably that year.
As PJ O'Rourke said in the last sentence of his brilliant political book The Parliament of Whores, "The whores are us."
Wow great post.Really i think it is an admirable post. Thank's.Mark David.
ReplyDeleteThis is definitely a topic thats close to me so Im happy that you wrote about it. Im also happy that you did the subject some justice. Not only do you know a great deal about it, you know how to present in a way that people will want to read more. Im so happy to know someone like you exists on the web.
ReplyDeletesilk sarees